| Author | Message | ||
| James Ross (James_ross)
New member Username: James_ross Post Number: 49 Registered: 12-2006 |
I have a question for all you veteran boot makers. It might be kinda hard to explain but here it goes: I have a stitch pattern that has some pretty tight U-shaped turns. When i sew this and i am turning the material away from my needle the stitches get longer. Is there any way to avoid this other than sew the pattern from the other direction which would have me turning into the turn. Which seems like the easiest and obvious alternative but i just dont like sewing where my roller foot is on the in side of my pattern. good luck making heads or tails out of that question. JR | ||
| Lisa Sorrell (Sorrell)
New member Username: Sorrell Post Number: 209 Registered: 1-2004 |
James, If you ever find a machine that will sew even stitches around tight inside and outside curves let me know! You're always going to have this problem with tight curves. The only thing you can do is take it slow and do a certain amount of hand feeding it to control the stitch length. However, when you do this, an inexperienced stitcher will be more likely to create curves with "corners" so you may be better off just letting the machine feed as it will. This may not be the advice you want to hear, but my best suggestion would be to avoid stitch patterns with tight curves as much as possible especially if you're just getting into top stitching. Lisa | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 1406 Registered: 1-2004 |
James, You can control your cures some by just not making them as sharp...And you can avoid making the long stitches by making the curves go the right way and then you can sew all of your rows on the inside of the pattern..I never sew anywhere but on the inside of the pattern and I completely avoid making an outside curve with the machine. It takes a bit of thinking but you can do it. And it is the same with inlays...TR | ||
| Chad Little (Chad)
New member Username: Chad Post Number: 27 Registered: 2-2007 |
James, What kind of stitcher do you have? That has some bearing on how the leather feeds. However, speaking as someone who is a huge glutton for punishment, I typically sew no less that 11-13 rows. I find it very rewarding and believe that topstitching is very beautiful and lends greatly to the art of bootmaking! So, my opinion is don't worry so much about varying lengths. Remember that the lengths will vary in the same place every row you sew, you the pattern ends up looking like you did it on purpose, especially the more rows you add! Included is an example  | ||
| James Ross (James_ross)
New member Username: James_ross Post Number: 51 Registered: 12-2006 |
Chad, I use a Singer 31-17. Do you sew like Tex with each new row on the inside of the old row? JR | ||
| Chad Little (Chad)
New member Username: Chad Post Number: 28 Registered: 2-2007 |
Yes I do. I also, like Lisa says, counter feed with my hands as I turn tight corners. This is a hard technique to teach and is way easier said than done, but practice and patience will get you through. Another trick is to mark with a silver pen your angles at where you start and stop. As you know, the more rows you sew, the more the mistakes show up. So by having the guidelines, you know exactly where to sew to every time and where to stop. If this sounds weird, I can post a pic for an example! Chad | ||
| Larry Peterson (Larry_peterson)
New member Username: Larry_peterson Post Number: 36 Registered: 10-2006 |
Chad, Thank you for sharing this valuable information. I truely admire the stitching that you and Lisa have been able to accomplish. She is a national treasure and you are a true artist. I have been making boots for just over one year now and I am at about the same place that James is in gaining the stitching skill. Please pardon me for butting into this conversation, but I just couldn't help myself. Please, for my sake as well as James's, go into the technique and cover the aspects that seem to be common for you. I hate putting out a mediocure stitching job and want to develope this skill to the limits of my ability. I have resisted posting a picture of my work because I can see it isn't up to the standards of the veteran boot makers. And I don't know how! Again, thank you for your assistance. Larry Peterson | ||
| James Ross (James_ross)
New member Username: James_ross Post Number: 52 Registered: 12-2006 |
I guess i just do eveything backwards from everybody else. I was taught to sew from inside out. whats the advantage to sewing the way yall do? Is counter feeding slowing the feeding of the material to the machine to help keep the stitches shorter. I agree with Chad I am satisfied with my stitchin to some degree but I want to get better! JR | ||
| Lisa Sorrell (Sorrell)
New member Username: Sorrell Post Number: 210 Registered: 1-2004 |
James, I too was trained to stitch the inside row first and then work my way out. You can do it either way equally successfully and neither way is going to eliminate the curve issue. You need to KNOW which way you're going to stitch a pattern and draw the design accordingly but other than that it's just how you're trained and how you've gotten used to doing it. Lisa | ||
| Lisa Sorrell (Sorrell)
New member Username: Sorrell Post Number: 211 Registered: 1-2004 |
Larry, I'm sure you've already discovered the "secret" to becoming a good topstitcher--practice and more practice! It does get easier over time. I was fortunate in my first job with Jay Griffith. He had a large order for stock boots with one row of stitching. I would sit and stitch one row stitch designs all day. That gave me practice in controlling the machine. I'll just throw this out for what it's worth... I started out sewing clothing and I'd never seen a foot or knee lift before I worked in a boot shop. I quickly realized that my right leg/foot was doing all the work controlling both the foot pedal and the lift. So I trained myself to stitch with my left foot to leave the right foot or knee free for the lift. It took a while to develop the same amount of control as my right foot but now I can stitch comfortable with either foot. And my right foot isn't having to constantly jump back and forth. One word of caution: Don't allow your right foot or knee to REST against the lift. It will mess up the tension to have the lift partially engaged. Lisa | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 1408 Registered: 1-2004 |
James, The reason I sew all of my rows on the inside is to control the pattern..The pattern I draw on the paper is the exact outside line...If you sew additional rows on the outside it changes that...TR | ||
| Chad Little (Chad)
New member Username: Chad Post Number: 29 Registered: 2-2007 |
Lisa, I bet you can drive a standard too! Wow, that is unique techinique. Tex, Good explanation on the outside row. The first row is the outside row! Larry, I am glad to post some techinique pics. Should be able to do that on Friday! Til then, here is another wild pattern! Just keep practicin'!!  | ||
| Mark C. Candela (Mark_candela)
New member Username: Mark_candela Post Number: 126 Registered: 5-2006 |
You know I read intently and eagerly await the next post in threads like this because I know someone is going to deliver that pearl of wisdom, that silver bullet that will transform me into a great stitcher and someone always has to bring up the "P" word. What's up with that  | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 1409 Registered: 1-2004 |
Mark, I will make it even worse: The pearls of wisdom for top stitching 1. talent 2. dedication 3. practice 4. experience Sorry, no silver bullets! | ||
| Mike Karnes (Jmkarnes)
New member Username: Jmkarnes Post Number: 56 Registered: 4-2006 |
Here's another thought about stitching really tight inside curves without the stitch nearly doubling in length. Take 2-3 stitches and lift the presser (with the needle holding your place) enough to relive the twist you are putting on the leather when you manuver it around in such a tight circle. Then take a couple more, and so forth. Luckily you don't have far to stitch in this fashion and I suppose this technique only applies to the drop feed machines like Singer 31-15,-17,-20. | ||
| Lisa Sorrell (Sorrell)
New member Username: Sorrell Post Number: 213 Registered: 1-2004 |
Chad, Actually, I can! I never thought about a possible link there... Mike, That's good advice and it describes what I try to do when I'm stitching curves. However, when you have to be REALLY careful or everyplace you stop with the needle down you'll end up with a corner. That's when all that practice and experience come into play. Oh, and just for the sake of argument...the first row is the inside row! Lisa | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 1412 Registered: 1-2004 |
Lisa, I will let you win because you are a girl but my outside row will always be the first row I do the same thing sometimes when I have to on curves but mostly I just keep my curves large and the problem doesn't occur. About a 1/2 inch raduis or larger...Example of a perfect size curve attached...TR  | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 1413 Registered: 1-2004 |
Here is another:  | ||
| Lisa Sorrell (Sorrell)
New member Username: Sorrell Post Number: 221 Registered: 1-2004 |
Tex, You're right--those curves are just right. James, If you're going to do teeny tiny curves, make sure the design demands it. Sometimes a design requires something special, but don't get into the habit of making your life difficult. Tex could have done that exact same design but made the top band with more curves that were really small and tight. It would have given him fits every single time he stitched it and not improved the design at all. Lisa | ||
| James Ross (James_ross)
New member Username: James_ross Post Number: 55 Registered: 12-2006 |
I have to do a hot rod style flame pattern. I just have 2 flames that have a turn that is small but the are still prolly 3/4'' or so. I sewed this pattern on some scap to see what i was gonna get into sewing the tops. I got longer stitches on all the curves and most of them were well over 1 1/4'' but i was only sewing on 1 thickness of leather too. When i actually go to sewing the tops i figure or at least hope they will sew better and smoother and not have near the problem with the longer stitches. I am sure this has been said before but i am still in aww of being able to talk one on one with people i look up to and admire their work. Its great getting yalls advice and ideas to improve my work. I also admire how open everybody is lots of craftsmen are not this way. I got flat run out of some saddle shops for watching while i was trying to build and work on saddles. Which i think is kinda a shame because everybody learned or learned something from another maker. Enough rambling starting to get as windy as Alvin!!!! Thanks!!! JR | ||
| Chad Little (Chad)
New member Username: Chad Post Number: 30 Registered: 2-2007 |
James, Lisa is so right, (except on the first row being on the inside, argument's sake . Don't make your life that hard. I use the KISS method, but I use it according to what I know that I can pull off. I mean, I love to topstitch and that is my thing, but I still try to keep it simple, cuz simple looks good, always! Instead of a lot of small turns and tight corners, I put a lot of rows in and turn more swooping curves. Another valuable trick is to draw your estimated stitch width as you create your pattern. In other words, if you want to create a 10 row pattern, take a scap piece of your top leather and sew your first practice line/row. This row can be just a simple flowing line with one turn and one corner. Then sew out your 10 rows using your prospective stitch colors. When your done, you will have a good idea of your color scheme and exactly how wide 10 rows will be. Measure that and apply it to your pattern as you create it. This will help you so much in your composition, or how you fill up your space (top). Perfect practice makes perfect practice!! Mark, What's this "p" word you hate?? Chad | ||
| James Ross (James_ross)
New member Username: James_ross Post Number: 56 Registered: 12-2006 |
Looks like a job for Mark. Wonder why the dang thing posted 3 times. Might have been operator error | ||
| Ben_nobody (Ben_nobody)
New member Username: Ben_nobody Post Number: 385 Registered: 4-2004 |
Something else that diminishes the differential in stitch length on sharp curves that some of the old hands in the trade passed along was special made roller feet that are the circumference of a dime and only about twice as thick as a dime providing less disparity in stitch length. I have passed along some of these to other bootmakers with great results. These were commonly used in the 30's thru the early 50's on singer machines, they also have ball bearings in them. Chad fascinating idea about establishing points on topstitching to accomplish absolute turns can't wait to see some new stuff. Tex as always outstanding work. Ben Nobody | ||
| Bobby Kovar (Boyjuki)
New member Username: Boyjuki Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2007 |
Also as Ben mentioned the smaller wheels seem to work better. The ball bearings are nice. Also they used to make them with the anti-reverse mechanism,to prevent the material from slightly rolling back. I have reconditioned many machines using these on many 31-15's, and 110w, and various models of post machines. | ||
| Lisa Sorrell (Sorrell)
New member Username: Sorrell Post Number: 222 Registered: 1-2004 |
Chad, That's an excellent point. When I'm doing a 10 row (for example) design, I always draw both the first and last rows on the top pattern. Then since I'm backwards I stitch the inside row on my paper pattern. But I've drawn it out so I know where the last row will be. That way I'm sure that I have room to get everything in. I've started drawing a line connecting the first and last rows at each point and stitching that on the paper pattern too. When I mark the design on the top I have all my contour lines marked out already. Lisa | ||
| Lisa Sorrell (Sorrell)
New member Username: Sorrell Post Number: 223 Registered: 1-2004 |
James, You'll probably have an easier time when you stitch on the actual boot top. If you were only stitching your practice piece on one layer of leather it wouldn't have the substance of a lined top and it would be much harder to handle. Lisa | ||
| Chad Little (Chad)
New member Username: Chad Post Number: 32 Registered: 2-2007 |
Which brings to mind another possible argument, for goodness sake. To stitch, or not to stitch, through the lining?? I prefer the latter. It does require more patience, holding your mouth right, smaller needles and thread, etc. I try to use a #9-12 needle with size 33 down to embroidery thread (really fine and very strong). On the real supple top leathers I will sew with muslin backing to keep from skewing the pattern too much. Overall, the idea is a super clean lining, with a whole other canvas on which you can create some really neat art, even more topstitching. Yeah, you guessed it. It looks really cool to see stitching on the inside that does not match the outside pattern. A very cool illusion!! Thoughts?? Chad | ||
| Gary Cunningham (Gcunning)
New member Username: Gcunning Post Number: 285 Registered: 1-2004 |
James sounds like how I have a pattern now. I have a pair that the stitch pattern all starts at the base then flares out into "branches" as it moves upward. To look at my silver pen drawings on the leather it looks more like a spider web. This way I have my ending points at the correct place to give the "branches" a pattern which looks like small parentheses to larger parentheses as they move toward the side seams. I know its a crutch but it works for me. | ||
| Mark C. Candela (Mark_candela)
New member Username: Mark_candela Post Number: 127 Registered: 5-2006 |
Hey Chad, Tell me about the embroidery thread. There are some great colors and some verigated threads available in embroidery threads. I have wondered about them. I am currently using a #10 needle with 46 thread. Going to a very short stitch lenght has helped me some with points and sharp corners because you don't have to plan where to end and turn as much. I do draw the lines that you are talking about. If I am understanding correctly. If I am doing a diamond for instance, I will draw silver pen lines to extend the axis of the diamond so the points form a straight line. Don't know if that makes sense. I also seem to want to stitch from inside out. It just fits my eye better. I can see the reasoning for outside to inside as far as laying out the design and having it fit on the top but the curves and points are sharper on the the smaller inside pattern so I would rather do them on the single row and have the curves flatten out a bit when I'm trying to lay the next row as close as I can to the first. I'm a rank beginner and don't know what the hell I'm talking about but I just thought I would share some thoughts to see if I am on the right track with my thinking. Also, I know this goes against the traditional way of thinking but I like the thought of not showing any bobbin thread on the linings. I wish I could avoid all bobbin thread showing especially for the counter cover tongue. That's partly because my bobbin thread doesn't lay flat. With most of you guys your bobbin thread looks better than my top thread. Thanks, Mark C. Oh, by the way, Chad, the "P" word I was refering to was "P"ractice. | ||
| Larry Peterson (Larry_peterson)
New member Username: Larry_peterson Post Number: 37 Registered: 10-2006 |
Friends, WOW! This has been a "GOLD MINE" of information. I am using a DC "slow down" motor on my Singer 95K40 and a 1 inch roller. I don't know whether I am better at sewing inside the pattern line or outside of it? I have started to sew two or three stitches at a time and use the hand wheel more. I had a total shoulder replacement a few weeks ago and my right arm is still in a sling. When I use a belt reducer on my 286, the hand wheel is nearly impossible to turn unless you press the peddel to the almost sew position. The left hand is helping the right hand right now, but the right will be online soon. Lisa, Thank you for the foot training counsel. I am placing myself on a strict foot training schedule. I have been using the right foot peddel to raise the sewing foot instead of the side knee lift. Do you think it makes any difference between the knee or foot peddel? I am using size 46 thread for my fancy stitching and moving the needle up a scocsh from the down position to keep it from dropping a stitch. This seems to work quite well. You are truely a "national treasure" and I sincerely appreciate your taking the time and sharing this valuable information. I wish to thank you other folks for sharing. I hate to steal someone elses pattern ideas but I am unfortunatly devoid of artistic talent. I may be a little retarded also because it takes me a lot of practice before I catch on to new things. I plan to post a picture in the future of the boots I am making now. They are Amber Malia kid (golden goat) bottoms with golden tan buffalo tops. I think this new information will make all the difference in the world with how they turn out. Tex, how do you feel about me (kind of) copying one of your patterns if I change it enough to not be outright theft? I will not copy if you choose to refuse permission. In fact, do you have any simple patterns that you would suggest as a project pattern? Thanks again to all those who have added to this subject, especially Tex, Mark, Chad, Lisa, Bobby, James and Ben. Your Friend, Larry Peterson | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 1428 Registered: 1-2004 |
Larry, Patterns and designs are not copyrited and never have been to my knowledge. Only photographs are copyrited by the photographer who took the photo. That is the way it was explained to me...TR | ||
| Larry Peterson (Larry_peterson)
New member Username: Larry_peterson Post Number: 41 Registered: 10-2006 |
Well friends, The "P" word has caused my neck and shoulders to ache and my eyes to water and go out of focus. I have determined that making a outside stitch around the pattern first and then sewing the following rows inside that first row works best for me, at this point in time. I need to see the tiny gap of leather between the wheel and the previous row. I am resting every thirty minutes, or so', to allow my eyes and neck to normalize. I was worried that the eye and neck strain might cause permenant dqamage but if it hasn't harmed Lisa, then I don't suppose it will hurt me. Tex, I don't think anyone would recognize my newly made patterns being rooted in your style patterns. I am making wide curves and following Ben's counsel. I am still gazing with coveting eyes at your "Eagle" pattern. I have tried to change it but my pattern keeps looking like a chicken. I will perservere! Would anyone venture to suggest color combinations that are complimentry for the stitch pattern? I really appreciate all the help, especially the technical advice. Thanks again. Larry Peterson | ||
| Colin Double (Double)
New member Username: Double Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2008 |
I just recently purchased a 31-15 to practice top stitching. I noticed a picture on here of a 31-15 with a wheel instead of a foot and also in two pictures in Carrlyn Miller's Step by Step posting. What is that wheel and what is the purpose? Do you use that instead of a foot? When top stitching usually how many stitches per inch do you use? | ||
| Mike Karnes (Jmkarnes)
New member Username: Jmkarnes Post Number: 107 Registered: 4-2006 |
The old 31-15 is about as good a machine as there is for top stitching but you gotta have a roller foot to make any job at all of following the stitch patterns you draw. There are two sizes of roller, one about the size of a quarter and one about like a dime. You need the bigger one to start. Stitch length is according to what you like the looks of but learn to like the looks of smaller stitches. Long stitches look like cheap work. There is a real limit to how little you can get though. Too short (the 31-15 will adjust down to no feed which is handy for chiseling out fine filigree work) and you'll cut the leather, especially goat. Smaller needles (11 or 12 gauge) and 33 thread and kangaroo will let you take short stitches. Shoot for about 15 or 16 stitches per inch to start with and get a roller foot and single feed dog for that machine. If it has a regular presser foot it more than likely has a feed dog on either side of the needle for pulling cloth straight through. It'll just frustrate you trying to follow a pattern. | ||
| Lee Miller (Lee_miller)
New member Username: Lee_miller Post Number: 326 Registered: 1-2004 |
Colin, Mike's advice is right on the money. We counted our fancy stitching this morning and there was 16 stitches per inch. Also, think about the needle you use. Round point or cutting point. We use a round point on the thinner leathers and calf and bullhide, we use a cutting point. Size 12 is what we normally use although we will switch to a 14 for the heavy leathers. Lee | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
Member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 1696 Registered: 1-2004 |
Colin, I don't like to be confusing here but I see no reason to use anything but a round point needle for anything. And I only use the equivalent size to a 12 for everything. Sorry but you are not going to find the same answer from every bootmaker...TR | ||
| Colin Double (Double)
New member Username: Double Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2008 |
Mike, Lee, Tex, Thank you for your information. I have purchased the single dog feed and roller foot. Now time to start practicing. Again I have seen it someplace on this website but can't find it with all the information available. What kind of material should I use to practice top stitching with? | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
Member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 1697 Registered: 1-2004 |
Colin, I would use a piece of pretty heavy leather, black preferably and use a white thread so you can see your stitches. The heavy leather will lie flat and not bend every time you turn...TR | ||
| Colin Double (Double)
New member Username: Double Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2008 |
Tex, How heavy are you talking about? 5-6oz? heavier? I have some scrap leather b/c I do a lil bit of tooling. Colin | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
Member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 1698 Registered: 1-2004 |
Colin, 5-6 oz is fine...If it is not heavy and stiff enough you will know....TR | ||
| Colin Double (Double)
New member Username: Double Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2008 |
Tex, Thank you for the help and information Colin |