| Author | Message | ||
| Christopher M Williamson (Ttex)
New member Username: Ttex Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2004 |
I have another beginners question ya’ll. I have two books now on making western boots and they both show a strip being nailed around the heel and toe on the bottom after the uppers are pinned. Why should I do this? We never do this when making shoes. We start to even out the heel area with a horse shoe shaped piece of leather. Is this the same idea? We glue and peg here I hate the flu CW | ||
| Janne Melkersson (Janne_m)
New member Username: Janne_m Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2004 |
Chris, I'm not sure but I think the strip is supossed to be taken away before putting the sole on. It seems like it is used to make the lasting allowance smooth! What you are talking about, is it the first layer of the heel? I think that most US bootmakers use a solid lifting as the first layer. I'm using a wedge of sole leather for the first layer and then I build up with liftings. | ||
| Christopher M Williamson (Ttex)
New member Username: Ttex Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2004 |
Janne So what you are saying is that it serves the same function as the pinning nails that we use and remove as we work our way around. I must admit that I don’t see the idea. From what I see in the books there is a lot of distance between the the tacks in the strip. That defeats the purpose of sewing up to the next nail to keep the vamp taught. The only way it would work is glue the vamp onto the toe box and then let it harden. Some makers do this before sewing the welt on. I see what you mean, It just seems like doubling your work. Thanks for the input!! The flu sucks, I’m going to work tomorrow CW | ||
| Jake Dobbins (Jakedobbins)
New member Username: Jakedobbins Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2004 |
Janne,
Right you are! Chris,
Correct! Some people also glue their counter covers on with the same procedure. It's called a "wiping strip", and the theory behind it, is it chases the pipes away from the edge. | ||
| Christopher M Williamson (Ttex)
New member Username: Ttex Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2004 |
Jake Maybe I’m don’t understand, but why not just pin the wrinkles away. I’ve done leather toe boxes on women's shoe and it worked fine. We’re talking about a nail every 1/8 inch in the worst places. I’m used to laying the nails down to let the glue harden somewhat while I do the next. at the same time we use the hammer to ” beat up the edge” as it is said in danish, for a clean line. You also stretch the skin a little tighter when you lay the nails down toward the met. line. I saw the pics that Tex showed with the other type of toe box. The string works here because of the materials make up. Or am I off base again? BTW, thanks for the answer. CW | ||
| Janne Melkersson (Janne_m)
New member Username: Janne_m Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2004 |
Chris, Jake Enclosed is a photo showing the old way of doing the job. The lasting allowance is sewed on to the insole. The nails will be taken away nail by nail and replaced with a stitch. These days I simply trust the all purpose cement and last the back part with the cement "wet" and then the nails will hold it until it dryes.  | ||
| Jake Dobbins (Jakedobbins)
New member Username: Jakedobbins Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2004 |
Chris, You ain't missing nothing. I don't see a problem with the way you're doing it. Janne, Sweeeet! I noticed this when you posted it on the London visit. Good job! | ||
| Janne Melkersson (Janne_m)
New member Username: Janne_m Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2004 |
Jake, Yea, good job indeed! It is one of Cleverly's makers who made it. | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 83 Registered: 1-2004 |
Chris, Some makers strap the counters and then remove, some don't strap them. I don't strap the counters. I nail the wrinkles down and then when it is dry I remove the nails and peg the holes. I don't inseam all the way around like the English shoe Janne showed. Never have. I do use all-purpose cement to last in the toes and tack a strip of leather(1/4 in wide) around the entire inseaming area. I DON"T inseam to the heel, EVER....All shanks are pegged, even with a shoe last such as a roper. Inseaming to the heel is not any advantage except for a factory that uses an ineaming machine......TR | ||
| Christopher M Williamson (Ttex)
New member Username: Ttex Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2004 |
All Thanks for the confirmation that it is just another way of doing things. There are still alot of finesses that I don’t know about. The band could have been one. By the way, my new master seems to think I should welt sew my boots heel to heel. He seems to think that it is stronger. This is one of the things that we are not in agreement upon. I could most likely hide the welt farther in after the ball like he says. It would not be the same in my eyes. Apart from that I don’t see how he can say anything about it when they refuse to help with anything. I’ll be ordering everything through my old master next time I visit him. Great looking’ shoe Janne. Thanks for posting it here. Gooood night aaaalll CW | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 85 Registered: 1-2004 |
Chris, Well, when you get back to Texas we will just have to break you of your Dansk bad habits.....TR | ||
| Jake Dobbins (Jakedobbins)
New member Username: Jakedobbins Post Number: 18 Registered: 1-2004 |
Chris, Where ever you decide to stop the welt, make sure you peg the shank. It's critical in creating a strong shank, which will stand the test of time. Cosimo and Sam Lucchese proved this many years ago. | ||
| Gary Cunningham (Gcunning)
New member Username: Gcunning Post Number: 21 Registered: 1-2004 |
Chris I'm not trying to sell you anything and I don't get anything out of it Buuuuut. I just put Carl Chappell's bootmaking tapes on DVD. I think he goes over stuff like this really well. If you ever wanted a copy you will need to talk with him though. | ||
| Christopher M Williamson (Ttex)
New member Username: Ttex Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2004 |
Gary, Jake and Tex Don't worry he is not going to break me. I'm a hard headed Texan with a bad temper. I'm used to bucking the system over here. I have some more questions for ya'll another day. I'm going to bed with my wife, Ya'll take care CW | ||
| Brian C. Thomas (Brian_c_thomas)
New member Username: Brian_c_thomas Post Number: 5 Registered: 1-2004 |
Gary, what does video tapes have to do with it? Carl, is one bootmaker with his own techniques. Many bootmakers don't run a strap around the heel. Tell Chris, what you do and why might be more helpful. | ||
| Christopher M Williamson (Ttex)
New member Username: Ttex Post Number: 19 Registered: 1-2004 |
Just so you understand what I mean. and why I don’t see the need for the band on the heel and toe. I thought I would take a quick picture of what I’m talking/writing about. This is a (Shoe)heel stiffener that is ready for the welt to be sewn on. The stiffener and upper is pinned and is drying so I can start to sew. BTW, The shoe is built up according to a job description that follows the shoes. I’m still open for suggestions. CW  | ||
| Jake Dobbins (Jakedobbins)
New member Username: Jakedobbins Post Number: 19 Registered: 1-2004 |
Chris, Looks great! I agree! Doesn't look like you need the band (wiping strip). Keep'em coming! | ||
| Gary Cunningham (Gcunning)
New member Username: Gcunning Post Number: 23 Registered: 1-2004 |
Brian I was trying to give him an option. He has lots of questions and that could be a solution for him. Shelly had just that moment finished the Burning of the last DVD and thought I would share the info. I may be reading more into this but I since you may have a problem with me sharing that info.? | ||
| Brian C. Thomas (Brian_c_thomas)
New member Username: Brian_c_thomas Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2004 |
Gary, no problem from me, please note the follwing pargraph from this web page. "The purpose of this forum is for people who have an interest in Custom Cowboy Boots and Custom Shoes to openly discuss issues of the trade. The forum will not be used to promote yourself or others except to congratulate them for work "well done!" All leather craftsmen and women are invited to participate." So lets openly discuss the heel whip strips. "Riding For The Brand" Brian C. Thomas | ||
| Gary Cunningham (Gcunning)
New member Username: Gcunning Post Number: 25 Registered: 1-2004 |
By the quote you’re implying I am promoting. Mark if you think I was out of line to mention the DVD's I will say I'm sorry and it will be done. | ||
| Mark W. Fletcher (Bronbo)
New member Username: Bronbo Post Number: 15 Registered: 1-2004 |
Gents, I think it is time to have this discussion via email. You are both pals, and all of us are. As admin, I am in the process of re-evaluating the term "promoting" so no action needs to be taken. I may change the paragraph that Brian quotes later on. | ||
| Christopher M Williamson (Ttex)
New member Username: Ttex Post Number: 22 Registered: 1-2004 |
All Before I run out the door I thought I'd answer this quickly. I'm thick skinned, IF (I didn't take it the wrong way) some one gets nasty. I like to hear /read about diff. sources and ideas. That's why I provoked this disc. topic Once again thanks for al the info. CW | ||
| Mark W. Fletcher (Bronbo)
New member Username: Bronbo Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2004 |
Chris, Action has been taken, they were given their last meal, they both refused blindfolds, and took it like brave men..... Actually, nothing was done except talking about it. A majority of the problem as I stated above was the word "promoting" and the intent of that word. When this Forum was started, there was a path that I didn't want it to go on. Basically I did not want the Forum to be used as someone's soapbox to stand on. The only word I could think of to keep it off that path was "promoting." The problem is, and I don't want to sound like a former president, but it depends on what your definition of "promoting" is. Posting pictures of a maker's boots or shoes, or discussing their methods can be interpreted as "promoting." Like I have told a few people, I don't mind makers mentioning that they teach seminars, or sell books or tapes. This is one way for beginners to learn and part of a library for them to keep and refer to. I am considering to start a sub-topic that only the administrator can post on. It will be a location to inform beginners what training, books, tapes etc., is out there. I am still in the planning process so it ain't final. I am also re-considering the word "promoting" and a possible change. But I don't want to change the intent. If any of you have a big dictionary and can find a good word, let me know. Chris, you asked a good question. Hopefully you got several answers that you will determine which one works best for you. Mark | ||
| Christopher M Williamson (Ttex)
New member Username: Ttex Post Number: 23 Registered: 1-2004 |
Mark In my opinion it would be great to have a list of books tapes etc. where people like myself could go to look for hardback info. A simple list could be a good idea. Then people could do a search to find the web site or address if they wish to have one. Just an idea CW | ||
| Jim Brainard (Jbcustom) New member Username: Jbcustom Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2009 |
 This is my 4th pair. I lasted directly to the 10.5D last and used "my" short heel measurement. It has too much excess in the instep, a bubble. Enlarging the short heel would blend the vamp to the tops but would make the tops too big. Is this a last problem or a "me" problem? | ||
| Paul Krause (Paul)
New member Username: Paul Post Number: 220 Registered: 1-2008 |
Jim, Maybe both. First off, the 10.5D means nothing when custom making, maybe we should say bespoke making. That 10.5D is an arbitrary designation. If I understand you correctly, you used the short heel from your foot for the top pattern, and just went with the 10.5D last for the boot itself. Am I correct? Did you measure and compare the SH from the last? Because the break seems high to me. If the SH from your foot is what you used for the top pattern, and it is smaller than the SH from the last, the tops won't sit down on the last properly. The short heel is where it all comes together. All three measurements need to be in harmony. The SH from the last has to match up with the SH from the foot, before you can make your top pattern fit to the last. How do your instep measurements compare to those of the last? That might also be some of the problem, from what we inderstand and can see. Paul | ||
| Jim Brainard (Jbcustom)
New member Username: Jbcustom Post Number: 18 Registered: 8-2009 |
The instep matched the last. I did not measure the short heel on the last. If the last fits every where EXCEPT the short heel, do you sand the last down? I don't want to do that but is that the solution? Paul, I did not get notice you replied to this months ago so I'm sorry but thank you you did. I still stuggle with this fitting problem. I wish for any help here. | ||
| Paul Krause (Paul)
New member Username: Paul Post Number: 235 Registered: 1-2008 |
Jim, Tex is right in his reply over in Vamp Fitting/Instep, it really is not possible to tell you what's going wrong here. A person with good technical writing skills could go on and on with explainations and still not hit on the reason you're having this problem. Heck I just delivered a pair that had a bit more room in the instep than I wanted, and I don't know where I went wrong. So I'm no expert. But I wouldn't sand the last down, especially at the instep, I'd get another last. That's tricky too though. If the heel to ball measure isn't right, you can end up with too much instep also. The heel could be too wide, that's another thing. Misplacement of the buildups can cause excess room in the instep. It's just impossible to tell you anything concrete on a forum, like Tex said. I wish it were otherwise, Jim. I will repeat this tho, if the last short heel doesn't match the foot short heel, then the top pattern made off of the foot short heel isn't going to work. You have to start with a last short heel that fits the foot. The last comes first. This is where the "combination last" comes in. I don't know but maybe you need a 10.5B to get the short heel measure right, and then build up the forepart to fit. If you can't hook up with a "known bootmaker" for fitting instruction (which really is worth whatever it cost you), then trial and error is all you can do. Persevere and you will figure it out. If boot making/fitting were easy, anybody could do it. Paul |