| Author | Message | ||
| Mark (Admin)
Board Administrator Username: Admin Post Number: 41 Registered: 1-2004 |
All, I think Tex started a good topic on the future of custom bootmakers, so I thought I would separate it from the previous topic and move it here. Please note, the previous topic was "OSU shoe boot and saddle closes" Quote from Tex; "But the big question is:? Do we really need so many custom bootmakers. Some NOW are having a hard time surviving and with the El Paso stuff that is coming out now. And with their prices of even exotics, and now the overseas production , how long will the Custom Trade survive? I believe unless something changes the custom trade as we know it may not survive much past our generation except for a novelty. This is a good topic! Maybe someone else can chew a little on what I have biten into....TR" (Message edited by admin on April 28, 2005) | ||
| Jess Monroe (Jess_monroe)
New member Username: Jess_monroe Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2004 |
It is my prediction that the companies that will have the hardest time in the future will be the semi-custom boot companies. These companies have a number of obstacles that are just part of the nature of their type of business. Many of the bootmakers that work for these companies are getting up there in age, so it may be a challenge for these companies to continue to find workers that are still interested in making boots. In order for these companies to cover their overhead, they need some sort of distribution system for their product. Boots from these companies are normally only found in high end boutique stores. These stores are few and far between (mostly found only in big cities like New York, and Los Angeles, as well as posh ski resort towns like Aspen and Vail). These stores seem to go in and out of business rather quickly. Only a few that I know about have been arond for any length of time. Even Billy Martin's, which used to be one of the biggest distributors of semi-custom boots is barely a boot store anymore. Since cowboy boots do not have laces, buckles, or other ways to easily adjust them, proper fit is much more critical than with other forms of footwear. When a customer is spending $600 to $800, which is where most good semi-custom boots start in price these days, that customer expects a comfortable good fitting product. However, the chances of that happening, especially the first time around, is probably not that great. The person taking the measurements at the store is usually in another city from the people making the boots. I have been able to get many good fitting boots through this system, but only because I was able to learn how each brand of boots fits, and then be very insistent as to what size last I wanted used, and how I wanted the build-ups done. If I had listened to the the advice of the people selling the boots, I would have a closet full of misfits. I know from past experience that what they wanted to build for me wouldn't have had a prayer of fitting. I am guessing that most customers would not be as determined as I am, would order one pair of boots, have them turn out to be a fitting disaster, and never order another pair. There are some truly exceptional boot fitter/salesman out there such as Gene Lee Reynolds at M.L. Leddy's in Fort Worth. However, these people are very few and far between. Another problem with the semi-custom business is that most of these boutique stores simply cannot afford to keep in inventory all the sizes and widths necessary to properly fit their customers. Thus, people may end up buying the wrong size in a standard D width, experience lots of foot pain, and just give up on cowboy boots. I haven't heard of anyone starting up any new semi-custom boot companies in this country since the late nineties, that hasn't had a past history in the business. Sometime ago the owner of a very well known semi-custom boot company told me he couldn't understand why anyone would want to get started in the semi-custom boot business in todays marketplace. To be successful in this kind of business one most be a good businessman, have a good product, and have a certain amount of charisma, so he/she can be the personality behind the product, as he/she goes around promoting and generating excitement about his/her brand of boots. (or I suppose one could just hire a few hot sales reps.) Thus, as semi-custom bootmakers start to disappear, and the quality of the remaining large factory boots is found simply unacceptable to those boot wearers who are used to a better product, these wearers will have no where else to go but to a full custom bootmaker. As long as full custom bootmakers have waiting lists (and I understand that most if not all of them do) and there are still people interested in pursuing this line of work, I see no reason why the craft shouldn't continue. Jess | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 634 Registered: 1-2004 |
Jess, I really think that the future of your "semi-custom" boot factories have very little to do with discontinuance of the Boot, shoe and Saddle program at Okmulgee. It will be a cold day when graduates from there go to work in El Paso on an assembly line....TR | ||
| Lisa Sorrell (Sorrell)
New member Username: Sorrell Post Number: 78 Registered: 1-2004 |
"I also think it would be a good topic for the custom bootmakers to discuss the future of the trade." Jess, I think you have a very valid point about the future of the "semi-custom" factories. They're forced to compete with large factories, cheap materials and cheap overseas labor. And you're right--most people are going to be dissatisfied with their product at the price they have to pay. I personally think the future for true custom bootmakers is rosy. Not everyone wants or can afford our product, but there are enough to keep us busy. We're in more danger of running out of bootmakers than boot buyers, that's for sure. My biggest worry is suppliers disappearing... Lisa | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 635 Registered: 1-2004 |
Lisa, All, I am not sure where the word semi-custom came from but if you had mentioned the word to my father or Jay Griffith or any of the other old timers, you would have heard some very bad descriptive adjectives used. I make no secret about my feelings for the high volume "boot companies". My father and other makers of his day called them "hand me downs" and ours were known as "Hand Made". I see nothing that has changed that would change that. I know there are others that won't agree with me about this but that is their opinion. This forum is dedicated to the preservation of fine hand made boots of the bootmaker and I would rather see it stick to that topic. There are many promoters of high volume production boot companies nowadays and I see very little comradery between the owners of those shops and the Custom bootmakers that post here on this forum. I too believe that the problems of the bootmaker should be addressed here. I also don't believe there will ever be a shortage of customers for the good makers, but I don't see any real shortage of supplies for the imaginative maker. There are a lot more leathers available now than in my father's day....TR | ||
| Mark W. Fletcher (Bronbo)
New member Username: Bronbo Post Number: 316 Registered: 1-2004 |
All, I personally believe the future (20-30 years from now) for custom bootmakers is not good. I think the USA has had a big change in lifestyle as we have moved from rural living to metropolitan living. People who are growing up today (even in Texas) prefer $250 tennis shoes, ugly shoes or sandals. What will there children wear? I think there will be some tried and true customers left, and the good custom bootmakers will cater to those. But I believe it will be harder and harder for new, inexperienced bootmakers to survive. And without them surviving, it will be harder to replace the bootmakers who are retiring. For one reason, and no offense to anyone (and I am trying not to discourage anyone), I think there are too many new bootmakers who take a class or read a book, buy equipment and a shop and go into business for themselves. Like any profession, you need to learn and work with someone experienced to be skilled at your job. I think it is too soon to project the affect of boot production shifting overseas (China, etc.). I think it will definitely have impact on El Paso and Mexico production. But could the shifting of supplies overseas affect supplies to custom bootmakers in the USA? At least price wise? I know that boot factories use a lesser grade of materials, but could that have suppliers making more of that type of product, could that make custom bootmakers supplies harder to find and more expensive for custom bootmakers? Just questions that I have been thinking of for awhile. | ||
| Ben_nobody (Ben_nobody)
New member Username: Ben_nobody Post Number: 222 Registered: 4-2004 |
After bein' on the bench for the past month and not really following the goins' on in this here forum I have decided that I can no longer spectate but I am compelled to take a turn at bat.You outfielders need to back up and the pitcher can bring the heat as this one is goin for a ride. As to the state of our industry the future has never been brighter. We have gone from a client that was primarily from this part of the world to international clients that want to brag about how they had their boots built in Texas, Oklahoma, Arizona or somewhere in the southwest by either real Cowboys or Bootmakers that know them.I have not taken a new client since last October and I am 3 years behind building over 100 pair per year in my back yard with no sign on the road. I get between 15 and 20 calls per day and about that many e-mails, I have 75 regular clients that have agreed to purchase boots till they or myself are dead!!! I recently called Mike Dewitt and everyone else I know looking to hire 2 bootmaker trainees for 10.00 to 15.00 dollars per hour and was willing to pay them to relocate.the only response I got was the sound of crickets and frogs long about dark each day as I anticipated some response.I have a client in Arkansas that wanted to commit to buying 3to5 pair of working cowboy boots to sell in his 15 John Deere dealerships as he was sick of sellin' a product he couldn't stand behind. He was prepared to pay 350.00 a pair for a 10 inch oiltanned work boot stock sizes and more if we would do some custom fitted work.I have come to the conclusion that no one wants to work for a living just complain about everything.I have passed on enough orders from new potential clients to cover up 2 other bootmakers in this part of the world.And on the high end boots demand must be incredible as both Carl and Lisa have base prices in the 1500.00 dollar range and are very busy. My good friend Bo Riddle just completed a contract deal with a so called disappearing semi custom boot company to do all their design work as well as his own line of boots.Bo has been comin down to learn how to grade and make pattern runs for these new lines of boots that will be available at our deal in Silver Dollar City in the fall.I realize that I am sort of a Cub scout in this trade as I have only been doin this for 40 years come May but if these are the HARD TIMES I don't think I want it to get better as I am only sleepin 4to5 hours a night now.Any time I hear Gloom and Doom about this industry I get excited cause I realize the herd is bein culled and whoever is left is gonna be better off. By His Grace Ben Nobody | ||
| Ben_nobody (Ben_nobody)
New member Username: Ben_nobody Post Number: 223 Registered: 4-2004 |
P. S. Just picked up a Wal-Mart Flyer and VELVEETA is on special this weekand they say cheese goes good with wine(WHINE)!!! Ben Nobody Think how busy I'd be if I had been SOMEBODY | ||
| Mark W. Fletcher (Bronbo)
New member Username: Bronbo Post Number: 317 Registered: 1-2004 |
Well, I wondered how long we had to jump up, scream and throw rocks before we woke that bear up from hibernation. Good to hear from you again Ben. | ||
| Lisa Sorrell (Sorrell)
New member Username: Sorrell Post Number: 79 Registered: 1-2004 |
Well said, Ben! It's so good to hear input from someone who's excited and positive! Lisa | ||
| Mark W. Fletcher (Bronbo)
New member Username: Bronbo Post Number: 318 Registered: 1-2004 |
Ben, Lisa, Sorry I am not optimistic on the future of custom bootmakers. I look at it from a historical perspective. I know there are going to be bootmakers and areas of the country due to certain reasons that will do well no matter what. But, I think if you look back, the general trend of western boots, (whether they are custom, “semi-custom”, factory) in the USA (and this is just a guess cause I don't have actual data) is on a downward trend, based on observations I have made. Go ahead, call me a pessimist or negative person. But tell me where the trend is upward for the majority of the industry. I really hope someone can change my opinion. | ||
| Brian C. Thomas (Brian_c_thomas)
New member Username: Brian_c_thomas Post Number: 267 Registered: 1-2004 |
Ben, I told you when you first ask for help that I was intrested! Ship the boots UPS! Brian C. Thomas | ||
| Gary Cunningham (Gcunning)
New member Username: Gcunning Post Number: 142 Registered: 1-2004 |
Ben, Tell me where you live again. One of my welding students might be interested. I know you might be gun shy but he is a good young man. If that did not work. I would go to a local High School Agriculture departments and ask the Ag teachers if they have any students that might be interested. When I was in High school I would have given my eye teeth to work in a leather shop. | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 637 Registered: 1-2004 |
Gary, What is a leather shop?...TR | ||
| Doug Collins (Runninhare)
New member Username: Runninhare Post Number: 107 Registered: 2-2004 |
Anybody; Would someone please tell me what semi-custom bootmaker is. I believe the person that brought up the term is not a custom bootmaker. My friend Daniel says semi is half,partly,not fully, imperfectly. I would say that someone that is a custom bootmaker would not even fit in those categories. Doug P.S.Oh! My friends last name Webster | ||
| Gary Cunningham (Gcunning)
New member Username: Gcunning Post Number: 143 Registered: 1-2004 |
I missed the point? Are you wanting me to define it better. "Leather shop", a place where some one who works with any leather to make a product. I was using the term to cover a broad spectrum of leather products. Boot,saddle, belts, billfolds, halters, hobbiest anything. I had no one to show me about anthing. I learned what I learned by teaching myself. | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 638 Registered: 1-2004 |
Doug, Good question. The term Semi-Custom was used by someone who evidently is trying to upgrade his "hand me downs" to acceptable status. It didn't work with me....TR | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 639 Registered: 1-2004 |
Gary, There is no such thing as a leather shop! Unless you are talking about a place where you shop for leather, such as a leather company. Maybe this is another topic that could be discussed. I have met people that make both boots and saddles, though I doubt their sanity!  but I don't know anybody that makes boots, saddles. billfolds, and does hobby stuff..I am not trying to be smart aleck but I have never worked in a leather shop in my life. Lets put it in the proper prospective. A bootmaker has a boot shop, saddlemaker has a saddle shop, A boot and shoemaker has a boot and shoe shop and a boot and saddlemaker has a boot and saddle shop. Just a lecture in proper names and terms. There is no leather shop in my vocabulary. You did ask me what I meant. Also a bootmaker is not a leather worker!....TR | ||
| Gary Cunningham (Gcunning)
New member Username: Gcunning Post Number: 144 Registered: 1-2004 |
I did intend the term to be anyone doing anything with leather. Not one person doing everything with leather. We could sit and discuss how people use words technically incorrectly i.e. "go get me a coke" (really a soda); go Xerox this for me" (make a copy); look at that filly colt (no such thing a colt is a male only). My term used exactly how I wanted it used. | ||
| Daniel Gordon (Danielg)
New member Username: Danielg Post Number: 128 Registered: 10-2004 |
I agree with Tex, if you want to learn boots, the best way is to spend time with a bootmaker. No college will teach you all the aspects of bootmaking/fitting and particularly the business end of bootmaking. I think a good bootmaker, no matter where he lives will have all the work he needs if he promotes his business properly and is an entrepeneur. You can teach a man to be a bootmker but you can't teach him to be a entrepeneur. I also think the future of bootmaking is rosey. People are willing to pay for a unique, well constructed, artistic boot. If they weren't most of the good bootmaker's wouldn't have the back logs that they have. As much as I hate seeing people walk around in bugs bunny boots ie)sneekers, the culture of Mexico, the western US and western Canada has always been and will always be deeply emersed in the ways of the west, therefore, boots will never die. I believe that Tex Robin and Jack Reed have more successful bootmaker's to their credit than the schools. Looking back I wish I went to Tex to learn how to make boots. As you know I am self, and book taught and I have all the work I can handle. I also have at least 3-4 legiment inquires every year from people asking me to teach them how to make boots. Haven't done it yet as it would be the blonde leading the blind. As long as custom bootmaker's stick together and attend the round-up bootmaking will continue for many years to come. Daniel | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 640 Registered: 1-2004 |
Daniel, Thanks for the compliment and vote of confidence. I really think that bootmaking is an art form and those who are going to become bootmakers will find a way as you did. I am becoming more concerned with young people that want to learn but are not talented to do the job. I get a couple of emails every week from someone wanting to learn bootmaking. I am not sure about the future of our trade in the present circumstances...It is legally impossible to have an apprentice now because of the liabilities, tax, and wage scales. So the only alternative is to pay someone for a crash course or start learning on one's own. I don't know which is worse! Everyone in the trade is having problems and for me it is impossible to expand my operation. I tried it years ago and to do so I would have to lower my standards to fit the labor market. I simply won't do that so here I am all alone making the whole boot by myself. My customers don't understand this and ask why I don't train someone to help. No thanks! You can't pay a helper in a bootshop $ 10-15 per hour and stay in business. I could go on and on but have work to do and must go.....TR | ||
| Mark W. Fletcher (Bronbo)
New member Username: Bronbo Post Number: 319 Registered: 1-2004 |
Doug, The term “semi-custom” boots is used by some boot customers/collectors to classify boots. A pair of boots made by Acme, or a pair by Tony Lama, or a pair of boots made by T O Stanley or a pair of boots made by Jack Reed has differences in them, both in materials and how they are made. You could say that Acme is a fashion boot, Lama is a factory boot, T O Stanley is a semi-custom boot and Jack Reed is a custom boot. Some wearers are happy with a pair of Tony Lamas, some will only want Jack Reed and some are happy with both. Personally, I fell no shame in wearing T O Stanley boots sometimes, and I wish I had a pair made by Jack Reed. Normally you would think that a wearer would only want the best, which is not the case. We are humans, a very complicated species. You could say the “semi-custom” boots are made using some of the custom boot methods, and some of the factory methods, usually a better grade of skin than a factory boot, but sometimes not as select as a custom bootmaker, sometimes they are made to measure (usually by someone who has nothing to do with the bootmaking), sometimes they are just stock sizes. To me, I see the classification similar to automobiles, not all are the same. They all have four tires, and engine and a body and hopefully brakes. But a Yugo is not the same as a Ford Taurus, or a Cadillac, or a Bentley. Some people are happy with a Yugo and some must have the Bentley. I am very happy with my Ford F-150, and you can’t give me a Bentley. I feel no shame in my F-150 when a Bentley passes me, although I am sure Mr. Bentley may be thumbing his nose at me. | ||
| Jess Monroe (Jess_monroe)
New member Username: Jess_monroe Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2004 |
Well put Mark. I couldn't have said it better myself. Jess | ||
| Mark W. Fletcher (Bronbo)
New member Username: Bronbo Post Number: 320 Registered: 1-2004 |
Jess, After a good night's sleep I got to thinking some more. The term "semi" probably is not the best word to use in this case, although I don't know of a better one and I don't want to play word games. A custom bootmaker probably doesn't appreciate the word "semi" in front of his occupation. That thought hit me harder than a "semi" truck. I didn't mean any offense using it and I know you don't either. But sometimes you have to look at things through a bootmaker's eyes, sometimes you have to look at it through a customer's eyes. I try do do this, but I don't all the times. I have a lot of respect for custom bootmakers and I know you admire them too. I will refrain from using it from now on, and not to continue Q & A over words and their meaning I think it is best to move on with the Topic Subject. (Message edited by admin on May 01, 2005) | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 641 Registered: 1-2004 |
Mark, I will go a step further...I don't even like the term "Custom Bootmaker"...But we are stuck with it now..they used to call us simply,"Bootmakers". But we are now forced to define ourselves. I won't go any further becuuse I think the point has been made. Your last post was right on the mark, Mark! Thanks for this page and your time and expense. It's a real service. If everyone who reads it and the ones that don't bother would just take ten minutes a day to post something, it would be a real gesture to your dedication and generosity.....TR | ||
| Jess Monroe (Jess_monroe)
New member Username: Jess_monroe Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2004 |
I am glad that we are building a consensus on this issue. However, there is still a couple of points about this matter that I want to clarify. The companies that make my boots do not refer to themselves as semi-custom boot companies. I started using the term more to define the last that the boots are made on, rather then the quality of the boots or the companies themselves. If a boot is built on a stock last but the customer chooses the design elements (heel, toe, color, stitching, etc.) I think of this as a custom designed stock boot. If the boot is made on a last where the build-ups are done from foot drawings and measurements, then I think of this as a custom last, or a full custom last. The missing term here is what do I call a last that has build-ups on it, but they are not done from measurements (which is how most of my boots are made) for example, a boot built on a size 12 last with a B width heel B width instep and D width ball. Now I know this is referred to as a combination last. However, I know that stock combination lasts also exist, so I was looking for a term that would describe this type of last build-up that was done especially for a customer. Here I thought the term semi-custom last was appropriate because the last ends up being something in between a stock last and a full custom last. If anyone has a better term for this process I would be happy to use that term going forward. As long as we are on the subject of bootmaking terms (which is actually a fun subject in itself) how do bootmakers feel about the term "Bespoke"? It's commonly used in the garment industry for making suits totally from measurements. Do you feel it is appropriate to be used when refering to full custom boots made from measurements and foot drawings? Jess | ||
| Mark W. Fletcher (Bronbo)
New member Username: Bronbo Post Number: 321 Registered: 1-2004 |
Jess, I think I'll take Tex's advise and just leave it at bootmakers. When I see the term "Bespoke" a see the image of a bootmaker working by candle light with just a awl and thread. | ||
| Mark W. Fletcher (Bronbo)
New member Username: Bronbo Post Number: 322 Registered: 1-2004 |
Tex, Thanks for the kind words, you and hopefully everyone else now how much respect and admiration I have for the people in the trade. Mark | ||
| Floyd Case (Casetradeboots)
New member Username: Casetradeboots Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2004 |
When I hear the term "Bespoke" I have visions of a bootmaker in central Oregon, that is where I first heard the term. Bootmaker is just fine with me, besides everything else is just academic ain't it... | ||
| Gary Cunningham (Gcunning)
New member Username: Gcunning Post Number: 145 Registered: 1-2004 |
I got one for you. Its been told back to me that when some in the trade have referred about me they call me a "hobby" bootmaker. Which again from what it sounded like was supposed to be a SLAM about me. It bothered me for a while. I guess it bothered me in how it was used and not the actual word. When I looked it up this was the dictionary's term: an activity or interest pursued for pleasure or relaxation and not as a main occupation. Well I guess it is me after all. | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 642 Registered: 1-2004 |
Floyd, The word "bespoke" comes from the books mostly written in England before the advent of the electric light, sewing machine, celastic, computer, and the automobile I think. But you will have to ask someone that has read them for sure....TR (Message edited by admin on May 01, 2005) | ||
| Brian C. Thomas (Brian_c_thomas)
New member Username: Brian_c_thomas Post Number: 268 Registered: 1-2004 |
Brian Thomas Boots Handmade Boots and Repair, My stamps says"Handmade in Abilene TX" "Bootmaker for the Brand" Brian C. Thomas | ||
| Mark W. Fletcher (Bronbo)
New member Username: Bronbo Post Number: 323 Registered: 1-2004 |
Gary, I remember a couple posts you made where you called yourself a "green" bootmaker. I thought that was being hard on your self. Personally, I think you got the skills, desire and definitely the equipment to be a good bootmaker. You just need to do it more. I hope that someday soon you can find a way to spend more time on it, if that is what you want. | ||
| Janne Melkersson (Janne_m)
New member Username: Janne_m Post Number: 128 Registered: 1-2004 |
Well, there are bootmakers, custom bootmakers, autodidact bootmakers, hobby bootmakers, bespoke bootmakers, green bootmakers, lady bootmakers and so on. I for one try to avoid these names since I think they limits us. I mean we are much more then any of these names. On my grandfathers gravestone it says here rests Shoemaker Emil Jonsson, everytime I see it it makes me sad because he was so much more then just what he was working with. If some one ask me I simply tell them I am making footwear. This might be a bit philosophic but I think it is a good thing that we not identify us to much with what we are doing. Janne Ps I forgot to mention one name for our profession which I think is the worts of them all, "real bootmaker"! Can anybody tell me what that is? | ||
| Gary Cunningham (Gcunning)
New member Username: Gcunning Post Number: 146 Registered: 1-2004 |
Mark Thanks. It's like you talking about your family and someone else talking about your family. The reason the term struck home was how it was ment. Even if it was true it still hit hard. I'm pretty hard on myself. I see every mistake. It KILLS me, it frustrates me and makes me want to do better. I love it and will continue. Truly if I can make 3 pair a year until I retire from teaching I will be happy. I just don't have the time to get into my shop. My time is so regulated I have to schedule time to blink. Most of its my own fault though. | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 643 Registered: 1-2004 |
Janne, A "real bootmaker" is one that makes genuine authentic boots. I though everyone knew that . It is the next question that is the kicker! Now what is a "boot"? We could go on and on and on and never get to a conclusion. That was a good one Janne.....TR | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 644 Registered: 1-2004 |
Gary, Like Janne said, there are all kinds of names for people to call us, but maybe it is when they stop calling us names that we have finally succeded in some of our goals. Maybe if you use the word commit. Commit yourslf to making boots and you will either succeed or you can sell your shop and buy a fishing boat! You will have the time if you commit yourself to it....TR | ||
| Mark W. Fletcher (Bronbo)
New member Username: Bronbo Post Number: 324 Registered: 1-2004 |
Gary, Remember the key words "I love it and will continue" People like you, Brian and others represent the future of this craft. | ||
| Janne Melkersson (Janne_m)
New member Username: Janne_m Post Number: 129 Registered: 1-2004 |
Tex, Thank's! Man, I think we better stop the discussion here, we will never figure out what a "boot" is :-) Janne | ||
| Joe Patrickus (Jps_boots)
New member Username: Jps_boots Post Number: 100 Registered: 1-2004 |
All: What is a "bootmaker" ? A very special person who makes others very happy. | ||
| Mark W. Fletcher (Bronbo)
New member Username: Bronbo Post Number: 325 Registered: 1-2004 |
Joe, I like that and it rings true with me. Whenever I get a new pair, I always have the biggest smile on my face. Mark | ||
| Ben_nobody (Ben_nobody)
New member Username: Ben_nobody Post Number: 226 Registered: 4-2004 |
A Bootmaker is an individual that has commited his life to prevailing in the face of all adversity,against all odds,despite negative perspectives,changing economies and regardless of endless rumor to perpetuate a way of life that will never end if we resolve ourselves to help it any way we can. This means that regardless of how you were trained be ye male, female,plant mineral,vegetable or other that each of us resolves to avail ourselves to extending Mercy (unmerited favor) to each person that attempts to take on the difficult task of this trade to learn it in one lifetime. If we plant seeds of hope instead of Disparity and Doom. Water them when they are about to wilt,Fertilize with ideas and little tricks of the trade then those that have survived thus far may see hope in the sparkling eyes of those deemed unwurthy to carry on in this So Called Hopeless Trade.Don't know bout ya'll but I become very inspired when someone says Ya Can't Or Won't Do It. By His Grace I Reckon Ben (Sleepin' Bear) Nobody | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 645 Registered: 1-2004 |
Ben, I would like to hear more about this list of dissatisfied graduates from Okmulgee. I am interested in improving the situation..The only way to do anything about it is to contact the people that supply the money for the school and make our complaints known. The school obviously needs a board of directors made up of bootmakers....TR | ||
| Pelle Kraft (Pelle_kraft)
New member Username: Pelle_kraft Post Number: 13 Registered: 2-2005 |
All, It has been interesting to read all the posts about the future of bootmaking and although I dont know anything about the market for handmade boots in Texas I think it is universally true what Daniel said about learning the craft. Just like you cannot learn how to become a ballet dancer or a sportsman at school, you cannot really learn a craft there either. Here in Europe we have schools for all kind of crafts these days but in the old times there was nothing like that of´course. Just the oldfashioned apprenticeship which, I suppose, might not always have been an easy time but it definitely turned out a lot of very skilled shoe and bootmakers. I suppose a course at school is always a start but it is probably with an experienced craftsman one can really learn something! Unfortunately, in my experience, the best craftsmen are not always the most businessminded it seems. I have seen a few incredibly skilled old makers and closers here in London who seems to have spent so much time doing the actual craft that they simply didnt have any time over for even thinking about learning the business side of it all too. It doesnt of´course always have to be like that and good luck to the skilled craftspeople who also can earn a good living from what they do! When I first came to London i worried a bit about the fact that most customers were rather old and that there might not be a new generation of customers coming along to the shops but I am pleased to see that there is a big interest amongst younger people to order handmade boots and shoes now! The biggest threat as I see it, to the trade, is the sinking standards and I dont think it is a good idea to not at least try to keep the quality going as there are reasonably wellmade shoes and boots being made in the factories these day´s for a fraction of the cost of handmade footwear. After all, qauality and individuality are all we really have to offer! I wish all you cowboy-bootmakers all the best for your businesses as I think it really is quite fantastic that there are still so many really beautiful and wellmade boots being made in Texas and I am very impressed by that! I know that a lot of younger people rather walk around in the latest trainers nowadays but I think and hope that your artform will always be appreciated and that there will always be enough customers coming along to order new boots from you! After all, I suppose we are all rather fortunate to be able to make a living from something that a lot of people would like to do and that we enjoy and can be proud of! By the way, Tex is absolutely right about that the term "Bespoke" stems from England. It is a funny term and "Benchmade" is another one that leaves a lot to be desired for and doesnt clear anything up for the confused customer! Pelle Kraft. | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 647 Registered: 1-2004 |
Pelle, It's always good to hear from you with your comments. And there is a problem with the teaching of new craftsmen in any trade..I didn't have to apply myself or worry about that. I was with my father when he went to the shop to work and always helped him with something. He would start a job and hand it to me to finish. It is strange but I never had much trouble learning to make boots. I guess it was so gradual that I didn't notice. I made myself a pair of boots when I was about 16. The biggest probem we have nowadays is changing the bootmaking student from student to maker. They must produce a volume of work that will pay for their wages. It just doesn't happen overnight. It takes several years before a beginner can become productive in the trade. So the student has two choices. He can work for a bootmaker free or nearly free for several years or he can go into business for himself. And going into business for themselves is probably a mistake but there aren't many makers that are looking for helpers , even for free. I'm not. There was a time when I was younger that I would have hired 10 young helpers but there just weren't any. I got one good one out of three in five years. But that was half a lifetime ago and now I am not much interested. Hopefully there are some more Whites, Leddy's, Dave Littles, or Sam Luccheses out there, just to mention a few successful bootmakers who have run production shops and done well. But I am afraid that most shops will be one man operations. I just hope the quality will still be there as it has been in the last century and the future will be there for the talented young bootmakers...TR | ||
| Pelle Kraft (Pelle_kraft)
New member Username: Pelle_kraft Post Number: 14 Registered: 2-2005 |
Hello Tex, I know what you mean with the problems about learning the trade nowadays. As you say, it doesnt happen over night and to become reasonably skilled and fastworking take quite a few years of practice and the problem is of´course that it all becomes rather an expensive exercise before an apprentice can actually start to become a good help in a workshop and if you are a one man operation, you just dont have the budget to take new apprentices on that might lose interest in the profession after a couple of years.... Here in England you can apply for quite a number of grants that are really quite generous (something I unfortunately, did not know about when I was an apprentice). However, the people who decide to whom they will grant a sum of money have little understanding of shoe and bootmaking and it often seems the money goes in the wrong direction, so to say, but this could be a possible way for an apprentice to afford at least a start of an education. Many people seem to be of the attitude that because making footwear is not an academic occupation, it is probably not to difficult to learn but this is not true at all in my experience! I would guess that someone like you, who learnt bootmaking as a young man with your father, possibly the best way to learn it I think, might not even be aware of just how much you have actually learnt during the years and if you had started at an older age it might have seemed like much more of a struggle! I firmly believe that the oldfashioned apprenticeship in a real workshop is the very best way of learning but due to different circumstances in more modern days, this way of learning is more or less gone unfortunately and not many young people are willing to live on the meagre income this will pay them and if you have family and kids, it is simply impossible. Sweden was a very wealthy country when i grew up and there were all kind of different school educations for all kind of crafts but they seemed to be very costly operations that in the end didnt often produce very much in the way of craftsmen and nor did they seem to attract any skilled craftsmen to do the teaching, so I dont have much confidence in Craft-schools, I am afraid. Pelle. | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 655 Registered: 1-2004 |
All, What happened to all of the discussion about bootmaking schools and learning the trade? Speak up, this is an open invitation... I would also like to clear up something since there a lot of readers that comment to others but don't post here on the forum. I am not anti-bootmaking school! My gripe is turning out students that can't even make a bootmaker minimum wage to pay their way. There is no communication with makers about their requirements or even any standards laid down for the students to meet. I would welcome anyone from Okmulgee or any other bootmaking school to join in on this forum and talk about the problems of teaching the trade. Anyone? I have tried for over 20 yrs to communicate with schools and teachers about potential employment but no success. And I still don't see anything happening. If this angers anyone, good. Maybe it will get someone to start talking....TR | ||
| Mark W. Fletcher (Bronbo)
New member Username: Bronbo Post Number: 346 Registered: 1-2004 |
Tex, I got an email from Mike DeWitt, the instructor at Okmulgee a week or so ago. He has been looking at the Forum and was wanting to know how to sign up so he could comment. I emailed him a reply but have not heard back from him. The address was from the school. If I don't hear from him soon, I will give a call. If anyone is in regular contact with him via email/phone, please tell him we are interested in his imput. I think everyone wants to help and make a positive contribution to the school. | ||
| Arthur Lim (Arthur_lim)
New member Username: Arthur_lim Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2005 |
Suggestion: I think everyone will agree that Tyler Beard's books have rekindled an interest in cowboy boots and everything western. We can keep the interest going by getting more media coverage. I can see shows like Good Morning America making a feature on everything Western. Periodicals like Esquire/VF/GQ get a tremendous amount of ditribution. Many of the readers of those magazines tend to be consumers who can afford a pair or two. I don't know if "Cowboys and Indians" have featured any bootmakers in their previous issues. National Geo should make a followup on bootmakers. Did they not have an issue where an article was made on the bootmaker? I think that was waaaay back in the 60's. | ||
| Walt Setzer (Walt)
New member Username: Walt Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2004 |
I am amazed at the postings I read here. Do bootmakers, by whatever term they use to describe themselves, study philosophy and debate also. I am humbled by the fact that you can not only produce beautiful footwear, but get online and discuss whatever topic comes up in a most interesting and thoughtful fashion. I look forward to meeting and talking to those of you who come to the roundup. As far as custom bootmakers go, I am just an ignorant biker who never thought anyone would pay $50-100,000 for a custom motorcycle when they could get a brand new Harley for $20,000. You only have to look at the tv or read biker magazines to see that there is a market out there for people who want the best and want it made their way. Seems to me that people who love cowboy boots should be willing to spend money to have the best. If I had the funds I wouldn't be wearing these off the shelf pieces of c**p that I wear. Maybe you need a reality show that showcases bootmakers. You would be much more interesting to listen to than a father and son argument for an hour a week. | ||
| Randy Cooley (Rocky)
New member Username: Rocky Post Number: 44 Registered: 1-2005 |
Walt, A very well thought out posting. Here up north, people give me funny looks when I talk about making custom boots. The thought of not buying something off a shelf seems to mystify most people. I'm a custom leather worker by choice, a law enforcement officer by trade and I'd like to add, a bootmaker in my dreams. Although often sidetracked by day to day responsibilities, this web ring keeps my dreams of becoming a custom boot maker alive. The dreams of us "new generation" bootmakers are kept alive by the willingness to share by folks like Tex Robin,Lisa Sorrel, Cindy Semmerling Carl Chappel, Brian Thomas and many others. There willingness to share their talents, inpute and concerns about boot making does make it possible for us newcomers to learn from the best, keep our dreams alive and hopefully be able to one day be considered custom boot makers are selfs. Our mission like those before us will be to pass our talents and knowledge down to others. | ||
| Gary Cunningham (Gcunning)
New member Username: Gcunning Post Number: 161 Registered: 1-2004 |
Hey Walt don't you be running down my best lesson plan I teach welding in high school and I can legally show the shows three days after they air. They are great to show what not to do!!!! Yes and they show things that are good to do. I hope you are planning to come to the "Watch Brian eat social hour" at my house Friday night of the Roundup. That's where you can sit down and visit with some of these guys. | ||
| Walt Setzer (Walt)
New member Username: Walt Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2004 |
I would love to come meet everyone and get some good Texas chow. Are there directions? I'll bet if I read the posts I will find them. I enjoy watching those shows, but I'll bet there would be some interest in a show that highlighted boot and saddle makers. There are lots of home improvement, bike building, hot rod building, gardening...basically something for everyone except leatherworkers and those who love quality leather goods. I know that I would be glued to the set. I was having dinner alone one night after I moved here from Idaho and the waitress asked me if I was a cop because I wore cowboy boots and nobody but cops wear boots here (good guess but bad reasoning). I told her that out west everyone loves boots and there are really cowboys still out there. I miss the west a lot. | ||
| Brian C. Thomas (Brian_c_thomas)
New member Username: Brian_c_thomas Post Number: 309 Registered: 1-2004 |
Walt, Randy, great post! Here Here I considering becoming a custom bike builder after watching bike build off, and the OCC show, NOT! Gary has the Cunningham Social Hour at his house and if you watch me eat, you will go hungry! "Hungry for the Brand" Brian C. Thomas | ||
| Randy Cooley (Rocky)
New member Username: Rocky Post Number: 47 Registered: 1-2005 |
Brian, Ill be sure to be on my best behavior at the dinner table.We can't have future Friday nights at the round ups known as the "Watch Randy Eat Social Hour." "Double burgers for the Brand" Randy | ||
| Walt Setzer (Walt)
New member Username: Walt Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2004 |
I will do my share of making taking the heat off you Randy. I've got to watch my 270 pound figure. I try to take it easy when I'm being watched though, don't want to cause anyone to wonder why they invited me. Gary, I also thought about building bikes, but I don't have enough tats, have most of my own teeth and my attitude isn't bad enough. I do want to build one for myself, but would much rather learn to make boots and spend my time doing that. Well, gotta get back to wrenching on my bike so I can leave on my trip. Y'all take care and I will see you in October. | ||
| Walt Setzer (Walt)
New member Username: Walt Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2004 |
I was just thinking that some of the comments seem to be regarding bootmaking as a vocation or profession. I see it as an art and I think a lot of customers, as I'm sure you artists do also. Why else would they be willing to pay the very high prices that a beautiful pair of handcrafted boots command? Has anyone researched putting together a school or program to train young bootmakers as artists? I was looking through the Foundation Center's (fdncenter.org) website and realized that there is access to a lot of grants for the arts if there is someone willing to do the work. Just a thought, but it may be a way to reach talented new bootmaking artisans and keep the craft flourishing while making sure it is recognized as the art that everyone here knows it is. If you look through the "Cowboy" magazines that cater to the Sun Valley, Vail, Jackson Hole crowds, there is a lot of art featured which I don't feel comes close the the beauty of a fine pair of boots such as I have seen posted on this site. I may be blowing smoke out of my *ss, but I guess that's why I like this site, it allows me to do so. | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 715 Registered: 1-2004 |
Walt, You can only go so far with teaching someone art. An artist is born, not taught. There are some rising stars in bootmaking now but there are also some that will bite the dust in a few years. I understand what you are saying but if someone is going to be a bootmaker he will be one. My father taught himself...I have seen makers learn from a book only and I have seen makers learn from another maker without ever looking at a book. There will probably not ever be any apprentiships because of the minimum wage problem. An apprentice can't do $ 5.00 an hours worth of work for a maker. I do teach seminars on bootmaking but that is as far as most will go nowadays and I really don't have time for that!.....TR | ||
| Randy Cooley (Rocky)
New member Username: Rocky Post Number: 48 Registered: 1-2005 |
Walt and Tex, Excellant observations and comments by both of you. Now for my 2 cents worth. I think all would agree that a well designed and custom fitted pair of boots is a thing of beauty. Us would be bootmakers can either teach ourselves or learn from one of the few custom bootmakers with the time, resources and desire to work one on one with students. I think one of the points Walt is trying to make is there is funding out there in the form of grants that could possibly be used to establish training programs for custom bootmaking without cutting into the profit margin of the custom bootmaker. I can make a comparison here. I started my career in law enforcement during the 70's recession. Crime rates were on the rise and alot of people were out of work. Through parcial government funding, I was able to be hired, trained, and paid to become a peace officer. Without this funding, the city that I went to work for would not have been able to absorb the costs of hireing me. As Tex says, an apprentice can't do $5.00 an hour worth of work for a master however if the master recieved a supplemant in the form of grant money, it's a win win situation. The master gets paid for shareing his expertise, the student learns bootmaking and the craft may well have a future. One thing is for certain, the government and some private foundations will continue to pour money down "ratholes" with or without us ever trying to get a piece of the pie. | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 716 Registered: 1-2004 |
Randy, Actually we have a lot of bootmakers that are making boots in the US now...Look at Jennifer Junes page and you will agree...There is actually a glut of them out there. I would love to see some info about grants but I am afraid it still wouldn't be enough to pay a master for his time. Most teachers of bootmaking techniques get $ 200 per day for tuition and earn every penny of it... The govt will pay half of hourly wages... Half of $ 5.00 per hour = no thanks. But I still have an open mind about the idea.....TR | ||
| Randy Cooley (Rocky)
New member Username: Rocky Post Number: 49 Registered: 1-2005 |
Tex, I've never looked into the grants Walt talks about so I can't really say how much or how little money is really out there. If the money is indeed out there, a perfect senerio would be a bootmaker gaining an apprentice, being paid enough the take the apprentice on, and the apprentice learning from one of the best and being able to eat every day would be an added bonus | ||
| L D Cresson (Ldcresson) New member Username: Ldcresson Post Number: 17 Registered: 8-2005 |
For those of you speculating about grants to support the continued study of arts . . . the award is not calculated on the hourly wage of the instructor, And actually the grant guidelines vary from institution to institution. There is the NEA National Endowment for the Humanities, NAEA, CAA, and especially in California there is likely to be funding for an artist who wants to study with a master bootmaker. The grant applicant, [an artist/student typically since sales tax collecting businesses are not eligable] works up the budget and justifies all expenses. If the application is completed properly the Master Bootmaker who sponsors/mentors will likely get paid at least as much as he would for building the boots himself, and just needs to watch over a student who is already creative and motivated. Where does all this come from? I've a Masters degree in Art History / Museum Studies on Fellowship and worked in the Musuem field for more than five years after completing this program. I wrote grants for exibits, audience development and for my own professional education. Grants are worth the trouble and they often result in good public relations. Trouble is that the the political party in power at the moment is not the one that puts more money into the coffer for education and art grants. I think Joe Patrickus had a few grant-related students. | ||
| Bill Neal (Bills_leather) New member Username: Bills_leather Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2005 |
Good Morning Everyone that Post here on the forum!!! I haven't posted much but do read it every morning. I have read this whole thing this morning and find it very interesting what people say about boot making future and (leather shop's). I have been doing leather work of all kinds for about forty years. First as a hobby and it became so that I was going to have to quit or quit my day job and this is alot more fun so I quit a day job and moved to Ruidoso N.M. I have been here 6 years and have found that there are enough people that still want a custom made leather idem and are willing to pay the prise. The first two years we were here it seems that about every other person that walked in asked if we made saddles or boots. I have done alot of saddle work but never actually built one from scratch. And at that time had never built a pair of boots. My wife and I talked about it a bunch and came to the disission that boot making would be the best route because normally no one is going to buy a saddle unless they have a horse and there are a lot of people that have boots in their closet that are never around a horse or cow but just like to wear boots(for what ever the reason). I did have to go to a school to learn to make boots but found that you can only get the basics. Then you come home and start learning to make boots. I have only made 25 pair so far and don't concider myself as a bootmaker yet. I am still learning. I have had 2 pair that didn't fit and the customer was not willing to work with me to get it right but have had 23 pair that I have won 1st prize as I have concidered it and haven't even entered a pair in W.F. For some reason I haven't had much of anyone that wants a fancy pair so therefore I can't do a lot of fancy work like I see on this forum but I guess that is alright. Also there are times that I can't work on boots cause I can make more money on custom leather items than I can on boots taking all in to consideration(time mostly) But, I do beleive that there are still alot of people out there willing to spend the money on a hand made(by one person) custom pair of boots no matter how long they have to wait. There are good boot makers out there that have been making boots a long time that are getting older and retiring or has we have seen lately that are passing on and there isn't anyone much to take their place. I think that there will always be a spot for custom boot makers because there will always be people out there that are willing to pay the prise for a good hand made item weather it be a pair of boots, saddle, purse, belt or anything else made of leather. I feel after I have made 50 or a 100 pair of boots I might be able to call myself a bootmaker but until then I am still learning. I also feel that when you get too old learn something new that it is time to call it quits period. I hope that I have said everything that I was intending to and not said too much. I love to read the forum and am quit upset when there is nothing new each morning. Thanks for the time. Bill billscustomleathersite.com | ||
| Randy Cooley (Rocky)
New member Username: Rocky Post Number: 61 Registered: 1-2005 |
Hi Bill, Welcome to the forum. I agree with you. There are still people willing to pay the price for custom leather goods. So far for me it's been making custom wallets, money clips, handgun holsters and knife sheaths. I attended the WF Roundup in October and got to hang out with some of the "best of the best" custom bootmakers. I believe as long as custom boot artisans like Carl Chapalle, Tex Robin, Cindy Semmerling and a host of others are willing to pass on their skills to others, custom boot making will survive. I checked your web-site and at least to me it appears you have made some "darn fine" boots. Keep up the good work! Randy PS You may want to make a post under the profile catagory and post some photos of your work in the photo catagory. I'm sure everyone else would like to view your work. | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 830 Registered: 1-2004 |
Bill, I have been working on my computer but I am partly back now...You are very welcome to join our little group and as Randy says you can post some of your work if you wish..any question you have we will try to answer them. Have a happy and safe Thanksgiving everyone and eat a lot of turkey and pie!....TR | ||
| Walt Setzer (Walt)
New member Username: Walt Post Number: 12 Registered: 5-2004 |
Hello all, I'm sure that it seems I fell off the face of the earth. I see that Randy explained that I missed the roundup due to working in New Orleans. I was offered a position providing security for Verizon while they got their cells up and working again. What a mess that place was. Anyway, I saw the photos and read the stories and unless there is another Katrina or some other disaster, I plan to be in Wichita next year. I have also moved from GA to Tucson, AZ which is much nicer. I didn't deal well with the humidity and bugs, but the main thing I missed was the western lifestyle. I still have to go back to GA and hope to make a stop in Coleman on the way there or back to meet Tex. I hope to get things straightened out in my life soon so that I can take advantage of your course and a couple of weeks of picking your brain. Hope you all have a great Thanksgiving. Walt | ||
| Randy Cooley (Rocky)
New member Username: Rocky Post Number: 63 Registered: 1-2005 |
Hey Walt, Welcome back to the forum. Keep on posting! Randy | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 834 Registered: 1-2004 |
Walt, Glad to have you back from the Cajun country. One of my cousins was there too. She works for some organization that identifies bodies...Yuck..I guess somebody has to do it though...Glad to have you drop by any time...TR | ||
| Walt Setzer (Walt)
New member Username: Walt Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2004 |
Thanks Tex and Randy. Tex, you may see me sometime before Christmas (can I say Christmas here?) and will let you know beforehand. Gotta go now and allow my turkey to digest. | ||
| Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member Username: Tex_robin Post Number: 835 Registered: 1-2004 |
Walt, You most certainly can say Christmas here. And even practice the Ten Commandments if you like. When the time comes you can't, I am gone. Be glad to have you come by any time. You may email me and let me know at : texsboots@web-access.net or call 325-625-5556...TR | ||
| Brian C. Thomas (Brian_c_thomas)
New member Username: Brian_c_thomas Post Number: 687 Registered: 1-2004 |
Has anyone ever heard of a “Bespoke” bootmaker that does everthing historical in bootmaking and uses Duct tape to wrap the flat steel shanks in their boots? I wonder what the dead guys would say to this. “Inquire for the Brand” Brian C. Thomas |