| Author |
Message |
Mark (Admin)
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 23
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 5:58 pm: | |
For some reason, this thread did an auto archieve. I think it should quit archieving on this topic. Just keep posting after this message.
(Message edited by admin on April 27, 2004)
(Message edited by admin on April 27, 2004) |
Lisa Sorrell (Sorrell)
New member
Username: Sorrell
Post Number: 66
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 4:32 pm: | |
I just finished a pair of boots for a customer. This is his second pair and I finally achieved a fit! He has a FLAT instep. I made the first pair using his heel measurement and he just slid into them and then his foot slid around. They fit everywhere but the heel area. For this pair, I took a lot of the cone off of the last and I made the boots much smaller in the throat. I treed them (outside circumference) 5/8" SMALLER than his heel measurement! I wasn't sure he'd be able to get them on, but they went on exactly like they're supposed to. This is only the second guy I've measured with a foot like that. Anyone else made boots for these kind of feet?
Lisa |
Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member
Username: Tex_robin
Post Number: 572
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 6:08 pm: | |
Lisa,
There are all kinds of different feet and the problems are just as different.. I don't think you can catagorize one flat foot as being the same as another. The same goes for a rigid and non-rigid foot. If you can you are better than I am at it. About all you can really do is keep track of the individual customer and correct his fit as you are doing.....TR |
Janne Melkersson (Janne_m)
New member
Username: Janne_m
Post Number: 85
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 11:17 pm: | |
Lisa,
I have made boots for these kind of feet. I don't do it in any other way then I use to do, I am making the lasts acording to the tracing and mesurement as normal. But there is one or two things that I specially look out for with feet like this and that is if the foot is corectable or not and I also check what is happening with the foot with full weight on.
The tricky part is if the foot is corectable and collapses with weight on, if so my advice is to say no thank's to the order and ask the client to visit an orthopeadic maker. The risk for a heavy misfits is big since you never know what is going on inside the foot. Insertions is needed and my experience is that the client need to see the maker several times before the first pair fits good. And, if the worse thing happends the boot could damage the feet!
If it is rigid then there is not much to do other then to build the boot acording to the clients rigid flat foot position.
If it is correctable then I make an insertion with a wedge on the medial side or if it is a minor flat foot just on the flesh side of the insole. If so, then I use the gemming technique since there is a problem making the holdfast on a layer of cemented leather.
Finally , I want to echo Tex "all you can really do is keep track of the individual customer and correct his fit as you are doing" that's a good one!
Janne |
Ben_nobody (Ben_nobody)
New member
Username: Ben_nobody
Post Number: 165
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 10:10 am: | |
Hey Lisa,
Hope you and yours are doing well and preparing for a joyous Christmas! As you already know from my ramblings that I cut the throat and tree boots to individual height of the arch and instep as well as customer preference in difficulty in pullon prior to completion. I use a neat tool called a contour gauge used in cutting around door facings and unusual millwork to get an absolute position of the arch in relation to the heel and ball of the foot as well as height both in a static position as well as when standing with weight on. It seems only practical that two people that both wear a 9D and both can have a short heel measurement of twelve and three quarter inches but one has high arch with high instep and the other is no arch and no instep that you have to tree the tops differently as well as cut the throat closer to the foot. This disparity can occur on the same individual that has a fallen arch or has had a foot damaged or altered by surgery. Standardized throat openings and general treeing of tops gives a approximate fit and not always the most custom fit desired. Good to see you back online as I'm certain you have been busy.
By His Grace
Ben Nobody
Post Script;
As some know I am not given to following the HERD when it comes to shoe and bootmaking and am given to looking for a better way each and every day to provide the best footwear possible to my clients. And as for how it used to be done well leather materials and the other products we now utilize are completely different as well as the feet and expectations of our respective clients. For what it is wurth!
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Daniel Gordon (Danielg)
New member
Username: Danielg
Post Number: 48
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 2:33 am: | |
Ben,
For the 9D with the low arch and flat foot how much would you lower the throat than a standard 9D? and how would you tree them differently?
Daniel |
Ben_nobody (Ben_nobody)
New member
Username: Ben_nobody
Post Number: 166
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 11:27 am: | |
Good mornin' Daniel,
Sorry for not responding sooner been racing the Christmas clock on one more pair before Santa's delivery. As for an exact way to measure and cut throats on the front panel that is determined by how high or low the instep actually sets when being measured for boots while the foot is on the heel height chosen by the client. As for treeing of the boot top this also is determined by the largest diameter of the foot being able to pass into the boot. So treeing of top becomes a matter of determining thickness of top material in leiu of treeing the pass line to the appropriate size needed for the clients comfort zone in how they want the boot to pull on. Key factors are a little geometry in assertaining inside circumference of the tube in relation to the natural bias of the given top material as well as flexibility and muscle structure or lack of muscle tone in the feet that are being fit. when you look at a foot with a high or very prominent instep it obviously requires a taller throat line than a low instep in order to be put on comfortably and the opposite is true for low instep so having a standard cut for the throat would be like giving everyone a size 10 boot to wear and tellin some folks to get used to it bein tight and others to wear extra socks!! As I read some of what I write I find it difficult to always understand but my door is always open or give me a shout and I'll see if I can muddy it up a little more. I generally build about 100 to 120 pairs of boots and shoes per year with zero dissatisfaction on fit with my clients and I can provide their reference's. I'm sure that most everyone here of the busier shops build more than myself working alone or some of the more experienced bootmakers as well have been building boots with as much success in fit. My tenure in this trade comes from a number of years working in a variety of cultures in numerous countries, which I'm quite sure has swayed me from the concept that there is only one way to skin the CAT.
By His Grace
Ben Nobody
Merry CHRISTmas to all!!!
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Rosemary Logan (Bootqueen)
New member
Username: Bootqueen
Post Number: 12
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 2:15 pm: | |
Ben:
Thanks for this information on fitting the tongue
which I don't think I have ever seen discussed before. This explains why some of my boots are so hard to pull on.
Merry Christmas to All!
Rosemary
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Lisa Sorrell (Sorrell)
New member
Username: Sorrell
Post Number: 67
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 3:40 pm: | |
Ben,
I had forgotten what you'd told me about cutting the fronts differently for high and low insteps. If I'd remembered it would have been helpful for this guy's boots. I'll try it on his next pair. I haven't played around with that yet but I'm going to start thinking about it.
Lisa |
Ben_nobody (Ben_nobody)
New member
Username: Ben_nobody
Post Number: 167
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 10:40 am: | |
When you start building boots or shoes and the concept is to make it fit the foot while being aesthetically pleasing to the eye,the format for developing it changes substantially. You can no longer rely on the way they built them 100 hundred or even 25 years ago as the criteria for fit and appearance has changed. Good enough won't cut it for this discriminating, eye dotting, tee crossin' magnifying glass clientele we now serve!!Ain't it great, as it causes us to aspire to a greater level of performance in the arena of this trade. You may have noticed that plain old boots and shoes are a thing of the past. There is a way to measure the exact properties I discussed earlier but due to space and my propensity to be wordy ya might want to call or drop in and I'll show ya what madness I have stumbled on to over the years siffin glue!
Happy HO! HOs!
By His Grace
Ben Nobody
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Daniel Gordon (Danielg)
New member
Username: Danielg
Post Number: 51
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 9:19 pm: | |
Ben,
Thank you for answering my questions. It's been a great help. If you don't mind I would like to call you in the new year and delve into this a little deeper as it is of great interest to me? I also use a contour gage to graph the arch of the customers foot. I find the contour gage a handy little tool around the shop, I use it when I'm cutting down heels on a last and for checking my box toes. I never thought of measuring a foot on a heel with the height the customer chose. It's a revelation to me and opens up a lot of possibilities. As for treeing the tops my method is also based on ease of entry. The last few customers I tape my top patterns together and have them slip into the tube. It gives me a base to go on. I'll usually trim the sides to allow for side seaming. You're right about customers wanting more and being more particular. I find most of my customers are from 40-65yrs. and are bringing in years of minor foot problems ie)shoes without proper support etc., so I think understanding the complexities of the foot are becoming more and more important. Opening up the throat for high insteps and rigid feet is a great idea. I've been doing something very similar out of my own trials and tribulations. When I was making my patterns the way the fella on the other forum laid out in his book. I had several misfits due to the fact the customer had great difficulty in entering the boot as the throat opening was too narrow. One of my customers has a western lifestyle / radio program which is syndicated in Canada and the U.S. He told a story on the radio of almost blowing his aorta trying to remove his boots at L.A. Airport. Security asked him to remove his boots and not having a boot jack for him he resorted to sitting on the floor while his wife pulled one boot off while he pushed on her butt with the other! After hearing that I thought I should start making my boots easier for my customers to put on and take off. I now allow a little more slack in building my tops and seem to have remedied most of my problems.
Daniel |
Daniel Gordon (Danielg)
New member
Username: Danielg
Post Number: 52
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 9:34 pm: | |
Lisa,
I recently made a pair of boots for a fella with flat feet and after two fitters models and some minor tweeking of the finished boot I fit him up. As the transaction involved several pairs of boots I was willing to put forth the effort but I sure earned my money on that first pair. I'll be finishing up his second pair soon and will be using the information I will be gleaning from this topic, to my advantage. When he came to me he was wearing factory boots with arch supports in them?? Although he had a flat foot his feet hurt without the proper support. He wanted a high arch and an undercut 2 1/4 inch heel and like a dummy I listened to Him instead of My Inner Self. I knew a 2inch to 1 7/8inch heel with less of an arch would be better. He fell into his first pair of fitters models. The second pair I cut the sides of the heels down an 1/8 inch on each side and trimmed the cone slightly. I lowered the throat and used a corresponding tongue pattern and they fit him well. I made the fitters models fairly stout and asked him to wear them for a few days. He said they felt great but could use a little more support in the arch and the heel to be a little higher which I did on the completed boot. After he wore them for a week he had me lower the heels to 2inches and I hammered down the arch slightly and he seems to be happy with them. If I would have followed my gut instinct I would have saved myself a lot work and grief.
Daniel
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Lisa Sorrell (Sorrell)
New member
Username: Sorrell
Post Number: 68
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 10:46 pm: | |
"If I would have followed my gut instinct I would have saved myself a lot work and grief."
Daniel,
Isn't that the way it goes? There's always something to learn, either about bootmaking or about human nature.
Lisa
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Gary Cunningham (Gcunning)
New member
Username: Gcunning
Post Number: 237
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 4:00 pm: | |
Carrlyn
I have some questions.
I really don't know how to ask them because I don't want ya'll to think I'm trying to pick. I really would like to understand. You have put a lot into the pictures and I know I'm asking for a lot so I understand if you can't address all.
So here goes.
-I would love to see how you make your top pattern associated with all the figures.
- How do you measure your placement of the toe flower?
- Do you attach you counter in such a way it cups the counter? If so how?
- How do you adjust for heal height so the top does not lean forward with a 2 inch heal?
- I also wish I could see how you attach the ears. Something looks different. I don’t know what it is it just does.
Most of this is not that I haven’t been taught its Carl really told me try and learn from everyone and then you can piece all information together and find what works best for myself.
Thank you for all that you have posted.
Gary |
Lee Miller (Lee_miller)
New member
Username: Lee_miller
Post Number: 211
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 11:39 pm: | |
Gary,
Carl was absolutely right when he said to talk to every bootmaker and pick and choose the methods that you like. I did the same thing and still do whenever I talk to others. It's a great way to learn.
I will answer some of your questions later, but your question regarding toe flower placement, I did explain on posting 27 to AJ under Beginners Q & A, under Design.
You're not picking at all and I'm glad you're enjoying Step by Step.
Lee |
Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
New member
Username: Tex_robin
Post Number: 1174
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 2:14 pm: | |
Gary,
I will have to illustrate the way I measure the toe flower when I get time...I will try to explain it though here. After cutting my design on the vamps and trimming the sides to fit the heel measurement I use my wrinkle pattern which has some marks on it to measure where I want the wrinkles to start..But first I hold the vamp on the last and put a little crease with my thumbnail to show the point of the toe..After marking a dot or line on the vamp with silver pencil, I rubber cement the backing(I use the striped ticking cloth for the backing) It works a lot better for me than tying to skive leather. If you insist on using leather,and doing it the hard way then do it..I just trim the ticking close to the flower and it leaves no lumps...Been doing this for about 50 yrs(never liked using leather after seeing the lumps that leather leaves in the toes.
There is a trick to cutting the ticking in the right direction for the stretch. Then I go to the machine and proceed to mark the wrinkle design and the toe flower with silver pencil...I just know(guess) where to sew the wrinkles and the TF pattern is a cutout so I just draw it with the pattern...Works a lot better than powder!...Then I sew them and lace and stick the ends down with AP cement after pulling them through and cutting them to about 1 in length. I have never tried sewing the TFs before crimping. I just don't like the idea, though it may work I don't think I could locate my flower tip that way as I like the tip to come out about 1/2 to 3/4 in from the tip of the toe....TR
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Gary Cunningham (Gcunning)
New member
Username: Gcunning
Post Number: 354
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 10:25 pm: | |
I lasted this pair of full quill and let them dry.
I let them dry for about a week before I could get back to them and they were really dry.
I was out of Bick 4 and used some other conditioner.
When it dried it left waxy places under the quill in places.
I tried to use a heat gun and melt it.
I was careful not to add to much heat but still have the waxy.
I thought about ivory soap but do not want to make it worse. Any suggestions?  |
Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
Member
Username: Tex_robin
Post Number: 1865
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 11:21 pm: | |
Yes, wash them with mild ivory liquid and slightly warm water and get rid of the bic 4 and use neutral or black meltonian next time ..A new piece of ostrich doesn't need anything on it for a conditioner, but I would use some meltonion on them after washing and drying them naturally without the heat gun. And why did you use a heat gun with caked up bic 4 on them?...TR |
Brian C. Thomas (Brian_c_thomas)
New member
Username: Brian_c_thomas
Post Number: 1047
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 12:07 am: | |
Gary, what was the conditioner you used? |
Brian C. Thomas (Brian_c_thomas)
New member
Username: Brian_c_thomas
Post Number: 1048
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 12:08 am: | |
Gary, is that a 1 row pattern I see? |
Gary Cunningham (Gcunning)
New member
Username: Gcunning
Post Number: 355
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 1:20 am: | |
Yes Brian... No inlays no collars I will admit the one row is kind of neat. There was this little Brian on my shoulder going "one row" "one row" and he was right.
I will admit I like the 1 rows and think I will do it on another pair that they just want one large cut out. We will see.
I hate showing my flaws and you can see how I lasted it that it has a little stretch to the side.
Tex I didn't use Bic 4 I was out I unfortunately used a product that I had poured up who know's when. I'm assuming it had bees wax in it. Yes I knew I had messed up. The problem is this didn't look right when it dried, it was "almost" a dry rot. Also any time I have used a heat gun/ blow dryer I have my hand under to test for to much heat. I will try the soap and meltonion.
Thanks guys |
Tex Robin (Tex_robin)
Member
Username: Tex_robin
Post Number: 1866
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 2:47 am: | |
Gary,
Yeah I read it too quick and wasn't paying any attention. But I don't use any kind of conditioner of any kind on any of my boots. I don't use any Bic 4, Lexol, or Mink Oil. Good leather doesn't need that stuff. I have tried them all and all they do is make a mess of a good piece of leather. I don't use anything on my boots other than creme polish or a little wax polish. My opinion....TR |
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